Made a rookie mistake need help!

Discussion of STOCK calipers, pads, rotors, fluids, lines, reservoirs, pedals and systems.

Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby nyoldguy » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:51 pm

Well I've checked the electrical side of this problem, (thanks Phoenix) checks out. Yesterday I pulled the reservoir off, lots of slime in there. So I guess I'm gonna pull the whole unit out of the car. I'm kinda thinking that something is gunked up in the master or solenoid block, and to move forward I need to know things are clean in there. Does anyone know where I can get a master cylinder rebuild kit for this unit? All the search results I got today are for non-abs MC's. Advance auto shows 1 number, (tm351617) but the only info is that it's a 1 1/8" bore, power brakes . Thanks again!
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby phoenix » Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:32 am

Yeah... I don't know of a rebuild kit for these units. Not to my knowledge. They can be obtained good used though, but before we (you) head there, try cleaning all of the slime and grime out.

The thick hose/line that comes out straight from the bottom of the reservoir is the pump suction line. You can see where it goes into the pump too (the other thick line goes from the reservoir to the master cylinder, now THAT could be clogged too, although less likely). That reservoir-to-pump line is the line the pump uses to charge the accumulator with fluid from the reservoir. And the pump is failing to do that. If there's slime on the bottom of the reservoir, chances are that line is completely clogged. It did not occur to me a mechanic would not have verified that if he had your car, that the fluid in the reservoir is CLEAN. That would be an easy fix if that's all it is. Just remove that line, blow it through and see how badly it was clogged! Chances are that's all it needs. If that line was badly clogged, check the one to the master cylinder too!

Post back!
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1990 LSC SE (a.k.a. "Christine")
1991 LSC (a.k.a. "Ghost")

Christine: Arnott air springs/front, Suncore air springs/rear, CHE rear control arms, 1.5/16" front "Turbo Coupe" bar, Addco 415 rear bar, poly bushings everywhere, 1x2" SF connectors, MM caster plates, KYB shocks, Michelin Defenders, special order factory built Turbo Coupe color scheme cloth LSC buckets (with a matching backseat), factory CD/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

Ghost: factory air springs, everything stock (except the front buckets out of '88 XR7), factory cassette/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

latest 3 projects: brake accumulator/system flush (Ghost), rear calipers (Ghost), ignition coil (Ghost)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby artbaileyjr » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:58 am

I helped a friend with the same problem today. I was thinking that it was a simple procedural issue, so I did the normal rain-dance as listed above. (Pressure to 35 PSI and bleed, after which, restart the pump and run fluid through the rear bleeder(s)). Hmmmmm...... No good. I've done this a million times!!! OK, next; Remove the accumulator (carefully) and run the pump with the reservoir full until fluid is present at the accumulator port. Hmmmmm... No Good! As Phoenix comments on in the above post, I figure that it must be a blockage somewhere... Take out an umbrella, pull the suction hose off of the reservoir (engine side) and apply 100+ PSI air pressure and wait for the storm of brake fluid to blow from the accumulator port. ......NOTHING!!!

Now I'm really scratching my head.....

So NOW..... I'm indiscriminately applying high pressure to both the suction hose and the accumulator port alternately. NOTHING!!!!! Start the pump and try the same thing again. This time I start to get some bubbles at the accumulator port so I stay with it and finely some debris blows out followed by the rainstorm of brake fluid. (Remember the umbrella thing? See?? I think ahead!) I re-connected the suction hose to the (now empty) reservoir and refill with fresh DOT 3, leaving the accumulator off. ..... Restart the pump and as the pump primed, nasty looking fluid and particulate emerge from the accumulator port, so I just kept it running until a clean, clear stream of fluid was being pumped out of the accumulator port. .... Shut the pump off and re-install the accumulator and re-start the pump with a rear bleeder open and someone holding the brake pedal down until clean clear fluid was present at the rear. (Watch that reservoir level!! We had three people to spare so doing all of these things simultaneously was pretty easy)

At this point, we bled the brakes as prescribed.

I don't know if any of this information is of any use to you, as we strayed FAR AWAY from the recommended procedures, but I'm pretty bold that way....

Good luck,
Art
..... It's more about the people, than it is about the cars .....

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... 1988 LSC 5 spd - Shifty ............... 1990 LSC SE - Trusty ............... 1991 LSC SE - Dusty ...
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/200 ... uide1.html
http://www.lincolnlandonline.com/index.html
1984 Base Turbo diesel, Silver - 1986 Bill Blass, Med Sandlewood, - 1988 LSC, Shadow Blue - 1988 LSC, Black, 5 spd -1988 Bill Blass, White - 1990 SE, Black
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby CDW6212R » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:07 am

Very cool Art, and I hope you had a water hose to spray off the fenders etc too. I think my 85 Mark VII had that kind of filthy fluid in it, the brake fluid and power steering fluid looked identical. It took a while to flush both systems out.

That's a good reason to change the brake fluid every year or two.
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby phoenix » Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:22 pm

So the PUMP itself was clogged inside???? :o ...Holy cow!!
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1990 LSC SE (a.k.a. "Christine")
1991 LSC (a.k.a. "Ghost")

Christine: Arnott air springs/front, Suncore air springs/rear, CHE rear control arms, 1.5/16" front "Turbo Coupe" bar, Addco 415 rear bar, poly bushings everywhere, 1x2" SF connectors, MM caster plates, KYB shocks, Michelin Defenders, special order factory built Turbo Coupe color scheme cloth LSC buckets (with a matching backseat), factory CD/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

Ghost: factory air springs, everything stock (except the front buckets out of '88 XR7), factory cassette/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

latest 3 projects: brake accumulator/system flush (Ghost), rear calipers (Ghost), ignition coil (Ghost)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby oldschool1 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:55 pm

Art,
Wow.

NYOLDGUY,
I've never gotten to the point that you and Art describe so all that I can say is fill and flush (without the accumulator).
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby White Lincoln » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:35 am

oldschool1 wrote:Art,
Wow.

Dido.

As always, you constantly amaze me with your mechanical prowess.
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby artbaileyjr » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:00 am

Thank you, but it's pretty easy to be bold when there is a known, good replacement Teves unit on he work bench 20' away. There is nothing much to be afraid of as long as reasonable safety measures are taken (relative to releasing high pressure). The pump itself is a very low flow, high pressure pump, so once the pressure (accumulator) is taken out of the loop, there is little risk of damage/injury by running it. It's just another mechanical thing. Some guy put it together ..... Any of us can take it apart and re-assemble it as long as we pay attention and exercise reasonable skills. :mrgreen: :D
..... It's more about the people, than it is about the cars .....

Image
... 1988 LSC 5 spd - Shifty ............... 1990 LSC SE - Trusty ............... 1991 LSC SE - Dusty ...
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/200 ... uide1.html
http://www.lincolnlandonline.com/index.html
1984 Base Turbo diesel, Silver - 1986 Bill Blass, Med Sandlewood, - 1988 LSC, Shadow Blue - 1988 LSC, Black, 5 spd -1988 Bill Blass, White - 1990 SE, Black
1991 SE, Black - 1991 LSC, Currant Red - 1991 LSC, White - 1991 SE, Currant Red. All straight, licensed, garaged and completely dependable.
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby White Lincoln » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:15 am

artbaileyjr wrote:Thank you, but it's pretty easy to be bold when there is a known, good replacement Teves unit on he work bench 20' away. There is nothing much to be afraid of as long as reasonable safety measures are taken (relative to releasing high pressure). The pump itself is a very low flow, high pressure pump, so once the pressure (accumulator) is taken out of the loop, there is little risk of damage/injury by running it. It's just another mechanical thing. Some guy put it together ..... Any of us can take it apart and re-assemble it as long as we pay attention and exercise reasonable skills. :mrgreen: :D

You're just too humble Art. I was more refering to all that brake fluid all over the engine bay, parts, floor, ceiling, walls, driveway, garage doors, neighbors house, WalMart down the road, The Presidents limo... and on and on.... all that dam brake fluid... :lol:
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby artbaileyjr » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:27 am

Yep! I understand. We had a large batch of rags and we wiped like mad MULTIPLE times during the whole thing. I guarantee that there was more brake fluid on ME than anything else when we were done. Fortunately, I thought ahead and took a spare set of clothes as I knew it was going to be messy. A garden hose took care of everything else.

Sometimes, you just godda' "go for it!" :lol:

Art
..... It's more about the people, than it is about the cars .....

Image
... 1988 LSC 5 spd - Shifty ............... 1990 LSC SE - Trusty ............... 1991 LSC SE - Dusty ...
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/200 ... uide1.html
http://www.lincolnlandonline.com/index.html
1984 Base Turbo diesel, Silver - 1986 Bill Blass, Med Sandlewood, - 1988 LSC, Shadow Blue - 1988 LSC, Black, 5 spd -1988 Bill Blass, White - 1990 SE, Black
1991 SE, Black - 1991 LSC, Currant Red - 1991 LSC, White - 1991 SE, Currant Red. All straight, licensed, garaged and completely dependable.
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby White Lincoln » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:14 pm

Been there done that...
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby nyoldguy » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:43 am

Thanks Art! After reading your post I was sure that was my problem, clogged pump. I pulled the whloe thing out of the car and broke it down, lots of sludge internally. I took the pump apart and had a 'eureka!' moment, inside the pump is a screen, very fine mesh, totally clogged with jellied brake fluid. Cleaned everything up, blew out the passages with an air hose, and put it back together. I had high hopes that I had this thing licked, but not so. Back in the car, filled with fresh fluid, pumped it a hundred times to get the air out of the master. Now the moment of truth, KOEO, I thought for sure the the pump would prime (I even poured some fluid down the intake hose on the pump before I hooked it up to the reservoir), pump still just runs, I left the accumulator off so I could see if it was pushing any fluid, nothing. Installed the accumulator, still nothing. Pulled the left rear tire off and hooked up a hose to the bleeder with the other end in some clean fluid. When I press the pedal, fluid still goes BACKWARD towards the master. I thought maybe it was trying to equalize or something so I gave it 10 or 15 pumps. I could see the level in my bottle of fluid dropping, I'm thinking 'where is all this fluid going?', right into the reservoir thats where! Color me baffled! I'm beginning to think that a piston in the abs block is stuck, does that make sense to anyone? Now some things I didn't do...I didn't break down the impeller part of the pump, I don't know if it comes apart or not, but I don't have a spare so I didn't want to break anything, I took the abs solenoid block off to blow the ports out, but I didn't try to disassemble that either. I guess I'm gonna have to pull the whole thing out again and dig deeper. Does anyone know the pinouts for the connector on top of the abs unit? That could be helpful. Thanks again everyone!
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby artbaileyjr » Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:55 pm

Think of the pump and the master cyl as two separate parts of the brake system. The pump needs to suck fluid from the reservoir and deliver it (via a high pressure hose) to the master cyl. The master cyl is just a convenient place to mount the pump. The accumulator should be considered part of the pump.

So here's how it pans out...

If you can remove the accumulator and run the pump, and no fluid is present at the accumulator port; look no further. It's the pump or the something related to it. If you have flow at the accumulator port, then re-install the accumulator and see if the fluid level drops in the reservoir. If it does, but you still have no fluid present at the wheels, then it's something in the master cyl.

If the pump is not primed, or will not prime, then you are wasting your time with anything else. Pumping the brakes at this juncture simply burns off calories and strengthens up the leg muscles. It does nothing for the braking system unless you intend to cut a hole in the floor and drag your feet to stop the car, in which case, strong legs would be helpful. :mrgreen:

I suggest that you remove the accumulator, start the pump and pressurize the reservoir until you get the pump to prime, then wait for flow at the accumulator port after removal of the pressure. If you can not get flow at the accumulator port, simply stop there and repair/replace the pump assembly. I used an air nozzle and wrapped duct tape around it until it would fit snugly inside the filler of the reservoir. Make sure that you set your pressure regulator to 35 PSI MAX.

Good luck
Art
..... It's more about the people, than it is about the cars .....

Image
... 1988 LSC 5 spd - Shifty ............... 1990 LSC SE - Trusty ............... 1991 LSC SE - Dusty ...
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/200 ... uide1.html
http://www.lincolnlandonline.com/index.html
1984 Base Turbo diesel, Silver - 1986 Bill Blass, Med Sandlewood, - 1988 LSC, Shadow Blue - 1988 LSC, Black, 5 spd -1988 Bill Blass, White - 1990 SE, Black
1991 SE, Black - 1991 LSC, Currant Red - 1991 LSC, White - 1991 SE, Currant Red. All straight, licensed, garaged and completely dependable.
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby phoenix » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:31 pm

Did all of those electric tests having to do with the pump plug and its corresponding harness plug (forget which one is male/female, there's one of each) pan out ok?
Image Image

1990 LSC SE (a.k.a. "Christine")
1991 LSC (a.k.a. "Ghost")

Christine: Arnott air springs/front, Suncore air springs/rear, CHE rear control arms, 1.5/16" front "Turbo Coupe" bar, Addco 415 rear bar, poly bushings everywhere, 1x2" SF connectors, MM caster plates, KYB shocks, Michelin Defenders, special order factory built Turbo Coupe color scheme cloth LSC buckets (with a matching backseat), factory CD/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

Ghost: factory air springs, everything stock (except the front buckets out of '88 XR7), factory cassette/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

latest 3 projects: brake accumulator/system flush (Ghost), rear calipers (Ghost), ignition coil (Ghost)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby oldschool1 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:37 am

NYOLDGUY and ARTBAILEYJR.

I want you Guys to know that what is typed below is your fault :)

I had a day off from work so I changed the oil in OldSchool1 and disassembled my spare brake system.

Pump filter.
Image

Pump inlet orifice.
Image

Pump pressure switch cavity and pump volute.
Image

Pump impeller.
Image

Reservoir sockets.
Image

When I take the REST of this bear apart, I'll make a formal post. For now, I need to ask, has anyone fully disassembled and cleaned one of these? This ~may~ be the next step for NYOLDGUY.
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby artbaileyjr » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:38 am

Glad I could help. :lol: :mrgreen:
..... It's more about the people, than it is about the cars .....

Image
... 1988 LSC 5 spd - Shifty ............... 1990 LSC SE - Trusty ............... 1991 LSC SE - Dusty ...
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/200 ... uide1.html
http://www.lincolnlandonline.com/index.html
1984 Base Turbo diesel, Silver - 1986 Bill Blass, Med Sandlewood, - 1988 LSC, Shadow Blue - 1988 LSC, Black, 5 spd -1988 Bill Blass, White - 1990 SE, Black
1991 SE, Black - 1991 LSC, Currant Red - 1991 LSC, White - 1991 SE, Currant Red. All straight, licensed, garaged and completely dependable.
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby oldschool1 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:31 am

All you did was ADD to my addiction. I now have parts scattered about my ONLY work bench and we STILL haven't gotten NYOLDGUY back on the road.

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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby mikeceli » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:19 am

Just lurking. Interesting!
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby nyoldguy » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:56 pm

Hey folks, just wanted to thank you all for your help! The lincoln is back on the road! After tearing this thing apart multiple times and not getting anywhere, I decided I had nothing to lose by taking the pump completely apart. What I found was the impeller was full of sludge. For anyone who hasn't seen this, the impeller has two ball bearings that ride in a race, behind those bearings are small pistons, if they don't move freely the pump won't pump. Bled everything again (the RIGHT way this time) brakes are good now!
The brake warning light is not lit, however the abs warning light stays on all the time. I took the the car for a thirty mile drive around town and did'nt have any problems stopping, but I don't think the abs is working. Thanks again to all!!
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby oldschool1 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:28 pm

Congratulations on the repair!

Did it look like this?

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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby artbaileyjr » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:33 pm

... watching closely ... :shock:
..... It's more about the people, than it is about the cars .....

Image
... 1988 LSC 5 spd - Shifty ............... 1990 LSC SE - Trusty ............... 1991 LSC SE - Dusty ...
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/200 ... uide1.html
http://www.lincolnlandonline.com/index.html
1984 Base Turbo diesel, Silver - 1986 Bill Blass, Med Sandlewood, - 1988 LSC, Shadow Blue - 1988 LSC, Black, 5 spd -1988 Bill Blass, White - 1990 SE, Black
1991 SE, Black - 1991 LSC, Currant Red - 1991 LSC, White - 1991 SE, Currant Red. All straight, licensed, garaged and completely dependable.
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby oldschool1 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:36 am

Sorry Art but all of my 1985 through 1990 brake systems are doing well so I'm not doing a repair and swap any time soon. The closest thing we have is Dana's 1990 is showing intermittent brake light (both) and that will be handled with parts collecting dust from Spinning Wheels.
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby oldschool1 » Tue May 29, 2012 1:37 am

Replaced the brake system accumulator in Dana's 1990 with one acquired from spinning wheels.

All is well.
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby phoenix » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:22 pm

Holy cow, years after I tried contributing to this thread (not understanding the issue), I am having the same issue.

Allow me to fill you in on where I've been recently...

So, it's not in my sig yet, but I have a 2nd Mark VII now. It was previously my good buddy's Thunderjet's, and now it's mine. So, I will henceforth call them Red and Silver (his is a silver '91 LSC). The car had a few pressing issues which Thunderjet informed me about of course (and I was cool with inheriting them), none bigger than the Teves running with every application. The accumulator was clearly shot. I parked it and picked up a new used accumulator (in good condition though) from a forum member here. Then one balmy day I headed out to the car with some basic tools and a half hour of time to swap the balls. And that's when things got bat****crazy.

Image

So, first of all, the 8 hex bit proceeded to strip the ball hex socket. I had not had that happen before. I stood there in shock and realized this was going to be much more of an adventure that I'd imagined.

So, I pulled the car inside (temporarily kicking Red out of its warm hiding place) and got to work. My thinking was, if the ball doesn't come out, the pump assembly can come out with the ball still attached to it. Indeed, it can be done.

For those wondering how, I haven't taken pictures of the process but basically what you do is unplug the three plugs living under the ABS/pump relays, move the relay box out of the way, remove the brake fluid tank, remove the one bolt securing the pump assembly to the Teves unit, unplug the pressure switch, unhook the steel high pressure line from either the Teves or from the pump assembly, and then push down on the accumulator ball and shove the assembly forward. It should go down considerably (there's room underneath), and shoving it forward ultimately pushes it off the stud that it sits on. Then you just have to work it up and out between the rear of the engine block and the Teves. There's plenty of room to accomplish that, you just have to find the right angle. Anyway, it can be done, fairly easily, and so out it came. With the ball still attached.

Since I had spare Teves units sitting around, I then removed Silver's (perfectly functional) pump and switch from the seized ball bracket.

Image

And moved them to one of my several spare brackets. Into which I would later screw the new accumulator ball. Note: the bracket shown in the below image is not the same one as in the above image (the above image bracket has a failed accumulator ball permanently seized to it). I mean, they're the same brackets in design, just not in serial number.

Image

So next I put it all back together, installing the pump/switch/bracket assembly, then the fluid reservoir, connecting the high pressure line and the two big hoses, all the plugs, everything, then finally the new accumulator ball. Key on, off we go.

NOTHING. The pump just runs. The fluid will not leave the tank, in fact it stays at precisely the level to which I filled it. So, the fluid is not getting to the pump.

So that's when (after a major hissy fit, lol) I went on an online search of this forum, and found this thread. Where I saw precisely my problem, described by the original poster and subsequently also by Art. I am now fairly convinced that there is a cloggage somewhere in the replacement bracket, the pump running and the fluid not leaving the tank being two obvious clues, plus the fact that the bracket was the only new component here. The said bracket (and its Teves) sat in a box for some 7 years. So, I guess, some old debris might have solidified over time? Lesson learned.

I am now going to try running the pump without the accumulator and see if that clears it out (following Art's procedure above) but if it doesn't I'll have to pull it all out and have the replacement bracket really blown out with pressurized air.

Stay tuned!
Image Image

1990 LSC SE (a.k.a. "Christine")
1991 LSC (a.k.a. "Ghost")

Christine: Arnott air springs/front, Suncore air springs/rear, CHE rear control arms, 1.5/16" front "Turbo Coupe" bar, Addco 415 rear bar, poly bushings everywhere, 1x2" SF connectors, MM caster plates, KYB shocks, Michelin Defenders, special order factory built Turbo Coupe color scheme cloth LSC buckets (with a matching backseat), factory CD/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

Ghost: factory air springs, everything stock (except the front buckets out of '88 XR7), factory cassette/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

latest 3 projects: brake accumulator/system flush (Ghost), rear calipers (Ghost), ignition coil (Ghost)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby WHITEOXLSC » Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:11 pm

Since the original accumulator ball is toast anyway, have you taken a good ole pipe wrench to the top of that thing and see if you can bust it loose? Might be worth a try since you know the original unit was working :mrgreen:
Bruce
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