Made a rookie mistake need help!

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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby phoenix » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:28 pm

WHITEOXLSC wrote:Since the original accumulator ball is toast anyway, have you taken a good ole pipe wrench to the top of that thing and see if you can bust it loose? Might be worth a try since you know the original unit was working :mrgreen:


I wish I could do that! The 8 hex now spins freely inside that thing, it's so stripped. The only thing I can think of right now is to put the BALL in a vice and spin the bracket. The ball wouldn't explode, right? I would have to squeeze it a little for that to work. :shock:

I'm just kidding. Well, kind of.
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1990 LSC SE (a.k.a. "Christine")
1991 LSC (a.k.a. "Ghost")

Christine: Arnott air springs/front, Suncore air springs/rear, CHE rear control arms, 1.5/16" front "Turbo Coupe" bar, Addco 415 rear bar, poly bushings everywhere, 1x2" SF connectors, MM caster plates, KYB shocks, Michelin Defenders, special order factory built Turbo Coupe color scheme cloth LSC buckets (with a matching backseat), factory CD/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

Ghost: factory air springs, everything stock (except the front buckets out of '88 XR7), factory cassette/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

latest 3 projects: brake accumulator/system flush (Ghost), rear calipers (Ghost), ignition coil (Ghost)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby WHITEOXLSC » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:46 pm

phoenix wrote:
WHITEOXLSC wrote:Since the original accumulator ball is toast anyway, have you taken a good ole pipe wrench to the top of that thing and see if you can bust it loose? Might be worth a try since you know the original unit was working :mrgreen:


I wish I could do that! The 8 hex now spins freely inside that thing, it's so stripped. The only thing I can think of right now is to put the BALL in a vice and spin the bracket. The ball wouldn't explode, right? I would have to squeeze it a little for that to work. :shock:

I'm just kidding. Well, kind of.


Well that might work, that is if you have a real grippy vice that will hold it from spinning. You could also try a heavy duty strap wrench, although I don't know how much torque you can apply to those. If you know someone that has a really big a$$ pipe wrench that would fit the ball itself might work. Anything is worth a try, what do you got to lose, I hardly think there is any pressure remaining in it. It's junk anyway and if you break it, no loss, but if it does break loose, you can still reuse the part. :mrgreen:
Bruce
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby CDW6212R » Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:56 am

Yes that's a lot of work to still have more trouble. I hope it you get it sorted out soon.

I bought a strap wrench set of two a while back for dealing with odd things like the ball/accumulator. I would have wanted to try that first before removing the pump parts etc. I recall the trouble I had bleeding the brakes when I swapped accumulators, with new calipers and lines. Manual bleeding didn't do anything, and it took a while with the pump running to move fluid down to the bleed screws.
Don
1991 Red Special Edition, my 2nd SE, dead paint, DWS 255/45/17's on 95 Cobra wheels, and soon; DVD/Navi/backup camera, OBDII and the 347, before custom paint.
98 Mountaineer with Continental DWS 255/55/18's, big sway bars, custom brakes. Soon to be A4WD with XP8 bumpers and wing.

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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby phoenix » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:04 pm

Ok, updates.

1. Got a shop to separate the seized ball from the original bracket.

2. Swapped everything out: pump + pressure switch to the new (old, actually) bracket.

3. Along the way I tested that the bracket (both brackets actually) has flow. I poured a tiny stream of brake fluid through the low pressure hose, it came out through the pump impeller. I poured brake fluid into the accumulator port, it came out through the pressure switch seat and the high pressure line opening. Both brackets actually tested positive. This should have been my clue, along with the fact my replacement bracket was actually pretty clean on the inside. I also tested the tank, pouring water into it and making sure water comes out through the low pressure nipple (the one that leads to the pump impeller). Water did come out in a steady stream.

4. Everything reconnected, accumulator in, key on. Same as before. Pump runs and runs, and fluid will not leave the tank (filled slightly above the MAX mark just in case), not even move any. The issue is hydraulic, the fluid simply does not get to the pump.

Could it have a massive air pocket in there? Would that potentially prevent the fluid from being pushed through? Since it's a closed system?

If so, I wonder if removing the accumulator and running the pump would remove the air pocket? The fluid should move then because the system will become open.

I can't think of anything else.... I know the old bracket wasn't clogged, it worked only a couple weeks ago when I parked the car.


PS: I can't for the life of me remember how we did my car all those years ago. My buddy and I replaced my dead pump and accumulator back in 2010 in an AZ parking lot. I could have sworn we didn't have this issue. We bled the rear brakes then. I think we bled the brakes immediately after replacing the pump and accumulator. I'm almost positive.

Or should I just bleed the rear brakes?
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1990 LSC SE (a.k.a. "Christine")
1991 LSC (a.k.a. "Ghost")

Christine: Arnott air springs/front, Suncore air springs/rear, CHE rear control arms, 1.5/16" front "Turbo Coupe" bar, Addco 415 rear bar, poly bushings everywhere, 1x2" SF connectors, MM caster plates, KYB shocks, Michelin Defenders, special order factory built Turbo Coupe color scheme cloth LSC buckets (with a matching backseat), factory CD/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

Ghost: factory air springs, everything stock (except the front buckets out of '88 XR7), factory cassette/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

latest 3 projects: brake accumulator/system flush (Ghost), rear calipers (Ghost), ignition coil (Ghost)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby CDW6212R » Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:16 pm

I would try everything, bleeding the rears, the front manually, or if possible will some adapter fit the MC cap, to use a common power bleeder. It sounds like the pump is just not able to prime itself. Hopefully the pump isn't hurt, just needs fluid forced into it.
Don
1991 Red Special Edition, my 2nd SE, dead paint, DWS 255/45/17's on 95 Cobra wheels, and soon; DVD/Navi/backup camera, OBDII and the 347, before custom paint.
98 Mountaineer with Continental DWS 255/55/18's, big sway bars, custom brakes. Soon to be A4WD with XP8 bumpers and wing.

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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby phoenix » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:24 pm

Okay, so we have established I think that there's simply air in the pump. The shop manual indeed prescribes a pressure bleed if a dry pump was installed (which is what I did). So, I did some research on this forum and found replies from Art. One question: when Art writes (here are two old post fragments responding to air-in-the-pump issues), what does it mean:

POST #1

(Fireshaker wrote:.... Think I should still try bleeding the R.R. brake with the key off?)

(Art responded)
"That's what I always did when I was in a hurry and needed the car, before I completely bled the system. I'd just have Kat hold the brake and I'd reach under there and open a bleeder until the flow stooped.

Id fire it back up, let the pump build up pressure and go! Occasionally, I'd have to do it twice."


(Gadget responded in the same thread)
I had to use the bleed the system out and let it re-prime trick the other night. Replaced the feed hoses from reservoir to ABS unit and it must have gotten an air bubble in there. Discharging the pressure and turning the key back on got it working again.

POST #2

(Art wrote)
"First, with the key OFF, pump the brakes about 20 times. Remove the screen at the master cylinder and with a suction device, like a turkey baster, remove as much fluid as possible. Refill the reservoir with fresh fluid.

Move to the right rear of the car and open the brake bleeder. Use a hose and a clear container (like a plastic water bottle) Put the hose in the bottle and slip it over the bleeder. (I usually break the bleeder loose with a socket first, then use an open end wrench after that) With the bleeder open, have your assistant push the brake pedal down and hold it down. While holding the pedal down, have your assistant turn the key on. The pump should run and a continuous stream should start coming out of the hose. ALSO... Except for the last time, always turn the key off and let the pressure deplete. This allows the pump to purge itself of any vapor or pressure. It [the pump] will not prime if there is pressure in the system, hence pumping the brakes 20+ times before you start the procedure, with the key off. This depletes pressure from the system and the fluid in the accumulator (a pressure reservoir) to return to the fluid reservoir. Unless you do this, the pump will not prime and will run continuously until it overheats and automatically shuts down, until it cools back off."



When Art writes "always turn the key off and let the pressure deplete," does he mean turn the key off with the RR bleeder still open?

Or even (as POST #1 and gadget's reply suggests).... hold the brake pedal down, never touch the key (=it's off the whole time), and open the RR bleeder............wait for the fluid flow to deplete with the key off, then close the RR bleeder, and only then turn the key on to reprime the system? (and then later, bleed the system properly since there will be air in the brake line)?

It sounds from these posts that the trick is simply to get the pump to prime, by relieving, in Art's words, pressure from the system. This method seems to be confirmed by Gadget in the reply quoted up there. Once that's done, everything can be bled as normal, the rear with a (now charged) accumulator?
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1990 LSC SE (a.k.a. "Christine")
1991 LSC (a.k.a. "Ghost")

Christine: Arnott air springs/front, Suncore air springs/rear, CHE rear control arms, 1.5/16" front "Turbo Coupe" bar, Addco 415 rear bar, poly bushings everywhere, 1x2" SF connectors, MM caster plates, KYB shocks, Michelin Defenders, special order factory built Turbo Coupe color scheme cloth LSC buckets (with a matching backseat), factory CD/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

Ghost: factory air springs, everything stock (except the front buckets out of '88 XR7), factory cassette/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

latest 3 projects: brake accumulator/system flush (Ghost), rear calipers (Ghost), ignition coil (Ghost)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby CDW6212R » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:36 am

I agree about the questions. I take the key point being that the pump needs to prime with no pressure in the system, at the pump outlet.

It sounds like Art was letting fluid flow without the pump running, from the back bleeder. I don't know how much fluid would move that way, but give it a shot.

I think having the accumulator empty is a key with changing the major components, so when in doubt, pump the pedal 20 times with the key off before starting the pump.

Given all of that, the brake fluid is always at atmospheric pressure on the inlet side to the pump. If there was an adapter available to fit the MC cap, that could be very helpful to prime the pump(pressure bleeder). Motive sells great kits for around $75, but I doubt they make an adapter to fit the TEVES opening.
Don
1991 Red Special Edition, my 2nd SE, dead paint, DWS 255/45/17's on 95 Cobra wheels, and soon; DVD/Navi/backup camera, OBDII and the 347, before custom paint.
98 Mountaineer with Continental DWS 255/55/18's, big sway bars, custom brakes. Soon to be A4WD with XP8 bumpers and wing.

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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby phoenix » Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:24 am

Well, Thunderjet and I battled it all night, and nothing.

We opened a front bleeder and pumped the pedal to relieve the pressure. Fluid was coming out. We closed the front bleeder.

We opened a rear bleeder and held the pedal until fluid stopped coming out. Fluid stopped coming out. We closed the rear bleeder (passenger side).

We keyed on. The pump still runs and the fluid will not leave the tank.

We tried the rear a couple more times. Now fluid won't come out at all. It's just nothing. Take out the bleeder, no fluid, nothing at the rear pass wheel. With the key on no fluid at the rear pass wheel.

We removed the accumulator. There is a little bit of fluid in the hole, it's definitely wet (and it was dry when I installed it, so fluid must have gotten through the pump to the accumulator hole???)

We ran the pump without the accumulator. Nothing. Nothing comes out the accumulator hole at all. And nothing leaves the tank.

What the heck??? :shock:
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1990 LSC SE (a.k.a. "Christine")
1991 LSC (a.k.a. "Ghost")

Christine: Arnott air springs/front, Suncore air springs/rear, CHE rear control arms, 1.5/16" front "Turbo Coupe" bar, Addco 415 rear bar, poly bushings everywhere, 1x2" SF connectors, MM caster plates, KYB shocks, Michelin Defenders, special order factory built Turbo Coupe color scheme cloth LSC buckets (with a matching backseat), factory CD/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

Ghost: factory air springs, everything stock (except the front buckets out of '88 XR7), factory cassette/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

latest 3 projects: brake accumulator/system flush (Ghost), rear calipers (Ghost), ignition coil (Ghost)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby thunderjet » Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:22 am

I think at this point the Teves unit has to be power bled to get the air pocket out. Probably the easiest way is to crack the accumulator loose, pressurize the reservoir, and wait till fluid comes out around the loosened accumulator. I think that can be done with a modified garden sprayer and a spare Teves cap. Thoughts?
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby CDW6212R » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:57 pm

I do recall Motive writing that they may be able to accept a MC cap and modify it or make an adapter to work with their power bleeders. I only remember reading of that years ago when I bought my kit for common late 90's Fords. I'd call them and ask if they know anything about the TEVES systems, about the shape of the cap etc.
Don
1991 Red Special Edition, my 2nd SE, dead paint, DWS 255/45/17's on 95 Cobra wheels, and soon; DVD/Navi/backup camera, OBDII and the 347, before custom paint.
98 Mountaineer with Continental DWS 255/55/18's, big sway bars, custom brakes. Soon to be A4WD with XP8 bumpers and wing.

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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby phoenix » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:18 pm

CDW6212R wrote:I do recall Motive writing that they may be able to accept a MC cap and modify it or make an adapter to work with their power bleeders. I only remember reading of that years ago when I bought my kit for common late 90's Fords. I'd call them and ask if they know anything about the TEVES systems, about the shape of the cap etc.


Ok... fixed it.

1. The unit had to be pressure bled.

2. Motive had the right cap (1106, look for it on their site).

3. Job done, new (used) accumulator runs every other application. Good enough, for now.

4. Along the way it was discovered that the RR caliper had seized in the open position. When I picked up the car I wondered why the brakes were as bad as they were, but attributed it to old pads and rotors. Well, that may be so, but having all four calipers work (instead of three) sure helps too! :lol:

5. So yeah, stops much better now. Off to new adventures.
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1990 LSC SE (a.k.a. "Christine")
1991 LSC (a.k.a. "Ghost")

Christine: Arnott air springs/front, Suncore air springs/rear, CHE rear control arms, 1.5/16" front "Turbo Coupe" bar, Addco 415 rear bar, poly bushings everywhere, 1x2" SF connectors, MM caster plates, KYB shocks, Michelin Defenders, special order factory built Turbo Coupe color scheme cloth LSC buckets (with a matching backseat), factory CD/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

Ghost: factory air springs, everything stock (except the front buckets out of '88 XR7), factory cassette/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

latest 3 projects: brake accumulator/system flush (Ghost), rear calipers (Ghost), ignition coil (Ghost)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby Wrenchpowervii » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:52 pm

How much pressure did you use? Did you bleed with the pump AND pressure at the reservoir or just pressure at the res then crack a bleeder?
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