Made a rookie mistake need help!

Discussion of STOCK calipers, pads, rotors, fluids, lines, reservoirs, pedals and systems.

Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby nyoldguy » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:18 am

Hi folks! Sometimes I'm my own worst enemy! The brake fluid in my '88 bb was looking like dark coffee, no idea when it was last changed, so I decide to flush it. I've done this many times before on other cars but never on a lincoln mk7. I made a few mistakes: 1) shoulda looked here first. 2) tried to do it alone 3) last and worst I let the reservoir run dry! I was fooled by the stain from the old fluid. Now I have no brakes. Knowing that I sucked some air, I tried to bleed it some more (after filling the fluid), got some air out but still no brakes. The accumulator pump runs constantly but doesn't build any pressure as far as I can tell. My neighbor suggested his mechanic so I had the car towed there, he is stumped. Everything was fine with the brakes until this, did I break something? or do you think that there is still air in the pump and it's cavitating?
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby CDW6212R » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:36 am

Welcome, the Teves brakes are tough to bleed, but it doesn't require any special tool like the later ABS systems. I'm not sure if there's anything special to do if air gets in the reservoir, but the rest is no big deal.

Bleed the rears first, of course, but not manually. The pump is used to bleed those. Have one person set in the car and when directed, turn on the ignition, press and hold the brake pedal down. The person bleeding the calipers simply opens the screw while the ignition is on(pedal pushed), and the pump forces the fluid out. Keep the screw open until the fluid looks clear and free of air.

Check the brake reservoir and do the next caliper. The fronts are done manually as normal cars, but, with air in the system it's helpful to use the ignition and pump for those, until the accumulator gets some fluid built up in it.
Don
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby phoenix » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:04 pm

Do the rears (or have your mechanic do it) first, as Don described it. Once you have clean fluid coming out of both sides back there, make sure the reservoir remains filled, and switch to the front.

I'm with Don on the fronts. Key ON, pump pump pump, it buzzes, you hold the pedal lightly pressed, the helper opens the front bleeder, you follow the pedal to the floor, don't release the pedal, he closes the bleeder. Release the pedal, pump pump pump again, it buzzes, you hold the pedal lightly pressed, the helper opens the front bleeder... get the point? You gotta maintan pressure in the system otherwise you'll spend a friggin day bleeding the fronts. Fill the damn reservoir and let the pump help you push the air out. I gave up on the conventional method of bleeding the fronts the very first system flush.

One more thing, get a brake bleeding thing (the Harbor Freight or any compatible tool that sucks the air when you squeeze the handle). With pressure built up in the system have the helper when he opens the bleeder SUCK the air out while YOU in the cabin apply pressure (key ON) from the master cylinder end by putting the pedal to the floor and by putting all the psi to work. That was how my friend and I finally figured to do it and the brakes are golden now.
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1990 LSC SE (a.k.a. "Christine")
1991 LSC (a.k.a. "Ghost")

Christine: Arnott air springs/front, Suncore air springs/rear, CHE rear control arms, 1.5/16" front "Turbo Coupe" bar, Addco 415 rear bar, poly bushings everywhere, 1x2" SF connectors, MM caster plates, KYB shocks, Michelin Defenders, special order factory built Turbo Coupe color scheme cloth LSC buckets (with a matching backseat), factory CD/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

Ghost: factory air springs, everything stock (except the front buckets out of '88 XR7), factory cassette/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

latest 3 projects: brake accumulator/system flush (Ghost), rear calipers (Ghost), ignition coil (Ghost)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby nyoldguy » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:42 am

Thanks for the quick response! You guys are awesome. I talked to the mechanic yesterday, and he's going to do just what you guys said. Hopefully he got a chance to do it< and that it fixes the problem. I'd rather drive it home than pay another tow bill! thanks again, I will keep you posted- Chris

Just talked to the mechanic who has the car, still can't get any pressure from the pump. the pump runs constantly. Our concensus is that the accumulator is bad, does that sound like the correct diagnosis to you guys?
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby phoenix » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:35 am

With the bleeders closed, does the pump run as soon as the car is turned ON (by itself, without applying the brakes)...

...or does it run when the car is ON and (with the pedal to the floor) one of the rear bleeders is opened? It will/should always run with the pedal to the floor for as long as a rear bleeder is opened.

Please post back.
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1990 LSC SE (a.k.a. "Christine")
1991 LSC (a.k.a. "Ghost")

Christine: Arnott air springs/front, Suncore air springs/rear, CHE rear control arms, 1.5/16" front "Turbo Coupe" bar, Addco 415 rear bar, poly bushings everywhere, 1x2" SF connectors, MM caster plates, KYB shocks, Michelin Defenders, special order factory built Turbo Coupe color scheme cloth LSC buckets (with a matching backseat), factory CD/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

Ghost: factory air springs, everything stock (except the front buckets out of '88 XR7), factory cassette/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

latest 3 projects: brake accumulator/system flush (Ghost), rear calipers (Ghost), ignition coil (Ghost)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby artbaileyjr » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:12 pm

nyoldguy wrote:Thanks for the quick response! You guys are awesome. I talked to the mechanic yesterday, and he's going to do just what you guys said. Hopefully he got a chance to do it< and that it fixes the problem. I'd rather drive it home than pay another tow bill! thanks again, I will keep you posted- Chris

Just talked to the mechanic who has the car, still can't get any pressure from the pump. the pump runs constantly. Our concensus is that the accumulator is bad, does that sound like the correct diagnosis to you guys?


NO.
The accumulator ~may~ be bad but that won't keep the system from working. The pressure must be released from the whole system before the pump will prime.

First: With the key OFF, pump the brakes about 20-30 times.

With someone in the drivers seat and someone outside the car, press the brake pedal WITH THE KEY OFF and open a rear bleeder. Maintain the pressure on the petal WITH THE KEY OFF until all residual pressure is released. Occasionally the bleeder will have debris in it, so feel free to remove it completely. It doesn't matter which REAR bleeder, but in normal bleeding fashion, I begin with the right rear.

Assuming that the reservoir at the master cylinder is full and the pedal is still depressed AND the bleeder is still open AND a battery charger is connected to the battery, turn the key on to allow the pump to prime. KEEP THE PEDAL DOWN.
Fluid ~should~ start flowing form the open rear bleeder. If possible, have a third person monitor and maintain the fluid level at the master cylinder. With the bleeder replaced or somewhat restricted, wait for a clean flow of fresh fluid. Move to the other side of the rear and continue to bleed ALL THE TIME with the pedal depressed and the key on. (pump running) (Now, do you understand the battery charger thing ... this can take a while!)

After you have a nice clear stream at the rear wheels, close the bleeder and release the brake pedal and allow the pump to run for a while. You should be able to see the fluid drop in the resivour as the accumulator fills and you will also hear the pump start to strain, then shut off.

Bleed the front brakes in a normal fashon...(pump, bleed release) about 30 million times. I usually do it with the key on, but it doesn't really add up to a hill of beans. A normal bleed on any of my Maks requires about five quarts of fluid.

It ~can~ be a real PITA!!!!
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby nyoldguy » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:30 pm

phoenix wrote:With the bleeders closed, does the pump run as soon as the car is turned ON (by itself, without applying the brakes)...

...or does it run when the car is ON and (with the pedal to the floor) one of the rear bleeders is opened? It will/should always run with the pedal to the floor for as long as a rear bleeder is opened.

Please post back.


Yes, the pump runs KOEO by itself. bleeders closed no pedal. I let it run for over 10 min (until my little 6 amp charger overheated and took a nap) still no pressure at the rear (KOEO bleeder open pedal pressed)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby K MANIAC » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:49 pm

nyoldguy wrote:
phoenix wrote:With the bleeders closed, does the pump run as soon as the car is turned ON (by itself, without applying the brakes)...

...or does it run when the car is ON and (with the pedal to the floor) one of the rear bleeders is opened? It will/should always run with the pedal to the floor for as long as a rear bleeder is opened.

Please post back.


Yes, the pump runs KOEO by itself. bleeders closed no pedal. I let it run for over 10 min (until my little 6 amp charger overheated and took a nap) still no pressure at the rear (KOEO bleeder open pedal pressed)


The behavior you describe indicates to me that there is more AIR in the brake system than brake fluid. You need to get that air out. Bleeding the rear brakes first, as Art described above, will get you on your way to doing that.
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby phoenix » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:03 pm

+1 to Chris and Art.

I'd follow Art's suggestion! If the reservoir is FULL and the bleeder is OPENED or even REMOVED and the pump is RUNNING and STILL no fluid is coming out at the rear, we might have a blockage somewhere.

Post back! Rooting for you!!
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1990 LSC SE (a.k.a. "Christine")
1991 LSC (a.k.a. "Ghost")

Christine: Arnott air springs/front, Suncore air springs/rear, CHE rear control arms, 1.5/16" front "Turbo Coupe" bar, Addco 415 rear bar, poly bushings everywhere, 1x2" SF connectors, MM caster plates, KYB shocks, Michelin Defenders, special order factory built Turbo Coupe color scheme cloth LSC buckets (with a matching backseat), factory CD/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

Ghost: factory air springs, everything stock (except the front buckets out of '88 XR7), factory cassette/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

latest 3 projects: brake accumulator/system flush (Ghost), rear calipers (Ghost), ignition coil (Ghost)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby nyoldguy » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:35 pm

hi guys thanks for all your help, it's much appreciated! Here is where I stand with this problem. I just got the car back from the mechanic the other day, work and weather kept me from working on it until today. Mechanic thought it was the accumulator, I honestly didn't think so but it looked original so I figured a new one couldn't hurt. The mechanic installed it, which didn't fix the problem. Today I started the bleeding process all over again, I didn't have an assistant at first so I used my vacuum bleeder at the right rear. I sucked out nearly a quart of fluid before help arrived, I got nothing but clear fluid, no air at all. With my assistant in the drivers seat, pedal pressed, KOEO, bleeder CLOSED, nothing happens, meaning the caliper doesn't move (i can still move the rotor by hand). KOEO, pedal pressed, bleeder OPEN, fluid goes BACKWARD! This is the strangest thing I've ever seen. So moved to the left rear, same thing happens, KOEO, pedal pressed, bleeder open, my vacuum pump sucking 20lbs of pressure, fluid still trying to go TOWARDS the master cylinder. KO, pedal NOT pressed, I was able to get a good flow with the vacuum pump until I was getting clean fluid, never saw any air. Moved to the front, just like I'm used to, pump pedal, hold, open valve, close valve, release pedal. I was able to get clean fluid in no time, no air at all. Front brakes seem to work fine, calipers grab the rotors when the pedal is pressed,release when not. I should mention that the pump runs any time the the key is on, for some reason the accumulator never charges. I wonder if this could be a master cylinder problem. I read somewhere that the pistons in a master will move to cover a port if there is a sudden loss of fluid ( like a hose rupture) this is to prevent the loss of more fluid so that the remaining half of the system (front or rear) has fluid to stop the car. After today, I don't think that there can still be much air trapped in this thing, I went through 4 quarts of fluid today, don't know how much the mechanic went through. I'm sorry this is so long ,I was trying to be as clear as I could be. Thanks again!
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby oldschool1 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:42 am

Thank you for being clear.

I think that your rear pads are not gapped properly. If the car is a 1988 or newer, then a few pumps of the emergency brake should do it.
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby nyoldguy » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:53 am

Thanks, Oldschool, but the calipers haven't been touched and they were working fine until I tried flushing the old fluid. I can watch when someone presses the pedal and the calipers don't move at all. thanks for the response!
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby phoenix » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:55 pm

EDITED, please read the next post.
Last edited by phoenix on Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image Image

1990 LSC SE (a.k.a. "Christine")
1991 LSC (a.k.a. "Ghost")

Christine: Arnott air springs/front, Suncore air springs/rear, CHE rear control arms, 1.5/16" front "Turbo Coupe" bar, Addco 415 rear bar, poly bushings everywhere, 1x2" SF connectors, MM caster plates, KYB shocks, Michelin Defenders, special order factory built Turbo Coupe color scheme cloth LSC buckets (with a matching backseat), factory CD/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

Ghost: factory air springs, everything stock (except the front buckets out of '88 XR7), factory cassette/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

latest 3 projects: brake accumulator/system flush (Ghost), rear calipers (Ghost), ignition coil (Ghost)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby phoenix » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:59 pm

nyoldguy wrote: I should mention that the pump runs any time the the key is on, for some reason the accumulator never charges. I wonder if this could be a master cylinder problem.


Wait, it runs even with the bleeders all closed, correct?

Are any of the warning lights permanently on?

These questions may seem redunant... but something is totally amiss here.

Rear bleeding is automatic on these cars, the easiest service procedure one could think of. I'm serious, if that's not working when done right, there is a hard fault condition present then.

Please bear with me. 8-)

The RED brake light should be on at all times when there's no system pressure (that's why it comes on even when the system is functioning correctly when the key is turned ON, because the pressure has bled off after the car has sat a few hours or longer). If there is no system pressure AT ALL, and that seems to be the case, then you should be seeing the RED light ON permanently, while the pump is running. If the red light is NOT on, that's an indicator of the true problem right there.

Alternately, if both the RED and AMBER (abs) lights are on, and the AMBER light won't go away, that's another indicator of a deeper issue. In analyzing this problem, the warning lights and the pump condition are our first and right now only helpers. These are the clues, we gotta put it together based on what they tell us. So, in moving forward it is important that we know precisely what the warning light and pump situation is right now. Please determine and post back!
Image Image

1990 LSC SE (a.k.a. "Christine")
1991 LSC (a.k.a. "Ghost")

Christine: Arnott air springs/front, Suncore air springs/rear, CHE rear control arms, 1.5/16" front "Turbo Coupe" bar, Addco 415 rear bar, poly bushings everywhere, 1x2" SF connectors, MM caster plates, KYB shocks, Michelin Defenders, special order factory built Turbo Coupe color scheme cloth LSC buckets (with a matching backseat), factory CD/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

Ghost: factory air springs, everything stock (except the front buckets out of '88 XR7), factory cassette/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

latest 3 projects: brake accumulator/system flush (Ghost), rear calipers (Ghost), ignition coil (Ghost)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby nyoldguy » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:52 pm

Yes, BOTH red and amber warning lights stay on all the time. Pump runs anytime the key is on, bleeder open or closed, pedal depressed or not. I let it run for about 10 mins yesterday while I was picking up, KOEO, no pedal, it never stopped. thanks!
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby phoenix » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:04 pm

OK, let's start with the basics, checking the pump and its connections. Please run the following tests, and post back!

Image
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Good luck, and post back!
Image Image

1990 LSC SE (a.k.a. "Christine")
1991 LSC (a.k.a. "Ghost")

Christine: Arnott air springs/front, Suncore air springs/rear, CHE rear control arms, 1.5/16" front "Turbo Coupe" bar, Addco 415 rear bar, poly bushings everywhere, 1x2" SF connectors, MM caster plates, KYB shocks, Michelin Defenders, special order factory built Turbo Coupe color scheme cloth LSC buckets (with a matching backseat), factory CD/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

Ghost: factory air springs, everything stock (except the front buckets out of '88 XR7), factory cassette/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

latest 3 projects: brake accumulator/system flush (Ghost), rear calipers (Ghost), ignition coil (Ghost)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby nyoldguy » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:36 pm

Thanks phoenix!, I can check these in the morning(weather permitting!) the only thing i can't check is the amperage, my multimeter can only handle 10 amps. What is your take on the brake fluid going backward at the rear calipers (KOEO pedal pressed bleeder open)? Weirdest thing I ever saw.
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby phoenix » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:56 am

I don't know.... it is very strange indeed. The pump running all the time though with the bleeder closed has to be an electrical issue. No leaks anywhere, no one's touching the pedal, it shouldn't need to pressurize itself to death. This is a known good new accumulator, correct? Where did you get it from?

Also, when did the pump start doing this constant running nonsense? You mentioned in the very first post that things worked fine until the brake flush was attempted. When did the pump first start acting crazy? What was the exact procedure after which it began doing it ?
Image Image

1990 LSC SE (a.k.a. "Christine")
1991 LSC (a.k.a. "Ghost")

Christine: Arnott air springs/front, Suncore air springs/rear, CHE rear control arms, 1.5/16" front "Turbo Coupe" bar, Addco 415 rear bar, poly bushings everywhere, 1x2" SF connectors, MM caster plates, KYB shocks, Michelin Defenders, special order factory built Turbo Coupe color scheme cloth LSC buckets (with a matching backseat), factory CD/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

Ghost: factory air springs, everything stock (except the front buckets out of '88 XR7), factory cassette/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

latest 3 projects: brake accumulator/system flush (Ghost), rear calipers (Ghost), ignition coil (Ghost)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby nyoldguy » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:53 am

see that is the thing, I don't think the pump is building any pressure at all, that's why it keeps running. If it was building pressure it would start to strain and shut off. I put my hand on it yesterday after it run for 10-15 min and it wasn't even warm. new accumulator is from spinning wheels.
brakes worked fine until I tried to flush them, I couldn't tell you how often the pump used to cycle because up until this problem I did'nt even know it was there!
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby phoenix » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:15 am

From my understanding, the pump will build enough pressure as long as the reservoir is full. It doesn't matter if there's air in the accumulator - when I put a new accumulator in (and I've done it several times), there was air in each of them, the pump took all of maybe 30 seconds to prime up regardless. It also doesn't matter if there's nothing but air in the lines - the latter is going to affect the braking but should have nothing to do with the pump. The pump is simply going to chuck that fluid that's in the reservoir into the accumulator and it won't care about the rest of the system too much. If it's not an electrical issue then something must be blocking the pump, physically, as in the "pump-to-reservoir" passage. I can't imagine what that might be. I'd run those tests first, I'm really inclined to think the issue will be there, something corroded or burned out.

Were any hoses from the reservoir removed (and reinstalled) at any point, btw? Was the reservoir itself removed?
Image Image

1990 LSC SE (a.k.a. "Christine")
1991 LSC (a.k.a. "Ghost")

Christine: Arnott air springs/front, Suncore air springs/rear, CHE rear control arms, 1.5/16" front "Turbo Coupe" bar, Addco 415 rear bar, poly bushings everywhere, 1x2" SF connectors, MM caster plates, KYB shocks, Michelin Defenders, special order factory built Turbo Coupe color scheme cloth LSC buckets (with a matching backseat), factory CD/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

Ghost: factory air springs, everything stock (except the front buckets out of '88 XR7), factory cassette/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

latest 3 projects: brake accumulator/system flush (Ghost), rear calipers (Ghost), ignition coil (Ghost)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby oldschool1 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:48 am

Nice descriptions AND evaluations.

Good job Spooky ... errr ... Phoenix.
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby phoenix » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:57 pm

Thank you sir. :D ...None of this will be any good if we can't find the problem. Hopefully it's electric and... minor. I really would like to hope it's the relay but that would simply disable the pump I think. We'll see when the OP posts back. :?
Image Image

1990 LSC SE (a.k.a. "Christine")
1991 LSC (a.k.a. "Ghost")

Christine: Arnott air springs/front, Suncore air springs/rear, CHE rear control arms, 1.5/16" front "Turbo Coupe" bar, Addco 415 rear bar, poly bushings everywhere, 1x2" SF connectors, MM caster plates, KYB shocks, Michelin Defenders, special order factory built Turbo Coupe color scheme cloth LSC buckets (with a matching backseat), factory CD/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

Ghost: factory air springs, everything stock (except the front buckets out of '88 XR7), factory cassette/JBL (resto: Paul Protos)

latest 3 projects: brake accumulator/system flush (Ghost), rear calipers (Ghost), ignition coil (Ghost)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby K MANIAC » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:14 pm

As a little FYI, the Teves system has valving in the actuator portion of the unit that releases pressurized brake fluid into the system whenever the brake pedal is activated. Since the reservoir was allowed to fully evacuate during the so-called "rookie mistake" incident, This valving may be blocked slightly open by the presence of dirt that could have passed from the bottom of the reservoir into the system, causing the brake fluid to recycle through the actuator portion of the block, back into the reservoir instead of passing out through the rear caliper bleed screws.

Or, it could be that with air in the actuation portion of the system, the pump may not be able to build pressure as it does when normally and fully bled. The factory service manual list two methods of bleeding the rear brakes, the method using the the pump as described in early posts of this thread, or by means of using a special pressurized bleeder that screws to the top of the reservoir (in place of the cap) and pressurizes the reservoir to a minimum of 35 psi. The manual is written in such a manner that if bleeding with the pump is ineffective, then you must use the pressurized bleeder until all air is evacuated through the rear bleeder screws. Then and only then with the bleeding by pump method work again.

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1989 Mark VII Bill Blass (Oxford White)
1989 Mark VII LSC (Pewter Metallic)
1989 Mark VII LSC (Sandstone Metallic)
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby White Lincoln » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:43 pm

I like the "tilt" effect of your article... :D
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Re: Made a rookie mistake need help!

Postby K MANIAC » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:18 pm

White Lincoln wrote:I like the "tilt" effect of your article... :D

Brad, I'm not as think as you drunk I am. :lol:
"This car may be old, but it will still climb Kirker Pass at 110!"- quote of the original owner of my green 1964 Chrysler 300-K

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1986 Continental
1989 Mark VII Bill Blass (Oxford White)
1989 Mark VII LSC (Pewter Metallic)
1989 Mark VII LSC (Sandstone Metallic)
1/2 of a 1992 Town Car Signature (my guaranteed inheritance)
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