BAGS VS SPRINGS

Discussion of STOCK air springs, struts, shock absorbers, shocks, compressors, air driers, lines and systems.

BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby oldschool1 » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:04 am

BAGS vs SPRINGS
Tony Assenza, Motortrend Magazine August 1983 "The most noteworthy technical feature of the Mark (VII) is the air spring suspension system. The Electronically Controlled Air Suspension (EAS) system consists of four rubber, air filled bags. These replace conventional coil springs at each corner of the car. Inside each bag is a venting/filling solenoid that takes commands from an NEC 8049 2K RAM microprocessor. This microprocessor is a dedicated unit and is completely separate from the car's EEC IV system, which controls engine functions.

I'm for air springs, and the comfort and safety that they provide our Lincoln Mark VIIs.
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The Air Spring System Is A Piece Of Junk

Postby oldschool1 » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:10 am

The Air Spring System Is A Piece Of Junk

"If you leave an inflated basket ball outside for 12 or more years and then get upset when it doesn't perform exactly the way it did when it was produced, then you'll think that the air spring system in a Lincoln Mark VII is a piece of junk." - John "OldSchool1" Dancy'
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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby K MANIAC » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:34 am

Air Suspension - A smart and sophisticated system for the smart and sophisticated driver. 8-)

Coil Springs - A simple spring for the...well, you get the picture. :roll:

Now, of course, there are torsion bar suspensions, which are really cool, but I digress.... ;)
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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby gadget73 » Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:19 pm

Coil springs wear out too. I helped do a suspension overhaul on an 89 Colony Park wagon, and one of the springs was broken at the end of the coil. They also sag over time. I had a set of cargo coils on my Towncar that were half flat in about 2 years, so I'm not at all sold on the concept of coil springs having vastly superior durability. I figure anything that lasts 10+ years in the environment that suspension parts live in is fine by me. Most of the failure problems seem directly related to old age wear on the rubber parts, and thats completely expected. The only thing I'd not mind seeing is a slightly larger capacity air compressor so that the system could pick itself off the ground when completely deflated in a bit less time.
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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby artbaileyjr » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:49 pm

Air Springs:
That's what was under it when it rolled out of Wixom.
That's what I want under it now.

If I want to ride on steel springs, I'll take the truck!

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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby tomnh » Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:33 am

From the land of the never ending frost heaves !!

We get these lovely frost heaves on the roads up here every winter. Some really big ones too. Driving over them with coil springs and you will wish you have a kidney belt on. With the air springs, it is really a much nicer ride. Doesn't jar the 'censored' out of you. I will stick with the air springs :D

(for you warm climate people. Frost heaves happen when the ground under the road freezes and the road is raised due to the ice expanding under the road. Now the frost heaves (should be named frost dips) raise the road over all, but parts of the road where the water can flow away under the tar, doesn't raise up and you end up with BIG dips, sort of like reverse speed bumps or pot holes that go across the whole road, these can be 6 inches or more deep with steep sides)
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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby artbaileyjr » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:32 am

tomnh wrote:(for you warm climate people. Frost heaves happen when the ground under the road freezes and the road is raised due to the ice expanding under the road. Now the frost heaves (should be named frost dips) raise the road over all, but parts of the road where the water can flow away under the tar, doesn't raise up and you end up with BIG dips, sort of like reverse speed bumps or pot holes that go across the whole road, these can be 6 inches or more deep with steep sides)

For those of you who live in the Los Angeles area, we can't call them "frost heaves". They are called "normal roads". They are caused by poor workmanship and lack of maintaince. I just wanted to clear that up.... :lol: :D :mrgreen:

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... 1988 LSC 5 spd - Shifty ............... 1990 LSC SE - Trusty ............... 1991 LSC SE - Dusty ...
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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby artbaileyjr » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:35 pm

morrell320 wrote:
Art,
I thought those were called FAULT Lines :lol:


Actually, they are just a little bit different.


ImageImage

.......Los Angeles pothole ................................................ Califronia Faultline!......

:shock: :lol: 8-)

Just another day in California... :D

Art
..... It's more about the people, than it is about the cars .....

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... 1988 LSC 5 spd - Shifty ............... 1990 LSC SE - Trusty ............... 1991 LSC SE - Dusty ...
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1984 Base Turbo diesel, Silver - 1986 Bill Blass, Med Sandlewood, - 1988 LSC, Shadow Blue - 1988 LSC, Black, 5 spd -1988 Bill Blass, White - 1990 SE, Black
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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby oldschool1 » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:39 pm

artbaileyjr wrote:
tomnh wrote:(for you warm climate people. Frost heaves happen when the ground under the road freezes and the road is raised due to the ice expanding under the road. Now the frost heaves (should be named frost dips) raise the road over all, but parts of the road where the water can flow away under the tar, doesn't raise up and you end up with BIG dips, sort of like reverse speed bumps or pot holes that go across the whole road, these can be 6 inches or more deep with steep sides)

For those of you who live in the Los Angeles area, we can't call them "frost heaves". They are called "normal roads". They are caused by poor workmanship and lack of maintaince. I just wanted to clear that up.... :lol: :D :mrgreen:

Art

LOL!
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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby ND4SPDLSC » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:07 am

The closest bolt in is for the '83-'88 Thunderbird/Cougar. It's in an HD version. I haven't tried them, but I am curious. Don may be using something else. The KYB GR-2s I have are over damped for rebound compared to the matching struts. The Gas-A-Just shocks would be way too stiff by comparison. If you really want the best, you can order some custom made Konis. I've inquired about an externally adjustable shock for rebound and they said they can do it. The cost is about $500 a set. It's probably less for an internally adjustable shock, but they're an absolute pain to change on the fly.
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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby warwgn » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:27 am

Art...

Quit bringing back my memories of getting stuck in that friggen hole....

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$3,000 damage to the car, and 3 months in the shop.

As for the shocks an struts part... James installed Monroe Sens-a-tracks on my mark.. they perform very well, James knows more about it though.
Last edited by warwgn on Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby artbaileyjr » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:30 am

...sorry... :oops:
..... It's more about the people, than it is about the cars .....

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... 1988 LSC 5 spd - Shifty ............... 1990 LSC SE - Trusty ............... 1991 LSC SE - Dusty ...
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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby warwgn » Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:46 am

And you guys should try driving on Quebec roads... there's a reason why you see a sign when entering Quebec that says "Bonjour Quebec, au revoir tires!"
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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby oldschool1 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:59 am

Damn OEM front air springs! I only got 40,000 miles and 21 years out of them!

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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby artbaileyjr » Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:28 pm

Arnott springs are more of a semi-sorta Bill Blass spring. Following is an image of the Arnott (upper) and stock LSC (lower):

Image

Following is the configuration of the Bill Blass spring:

Image

(Although the lower picture depicts a rear spring, the configuration of the front spring is typical)

It appears that Arnott is trying to stay somewhere in the middle, in fact, closer to the Blass spring more so than the LSC Spring.
You should feel little, if any difference between the OEM Blass and the Arnott.

Always replace them in pairs, especially if changing spring types.

Art
..... It's more about the people, than it is about the cars .....

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... 1988 LSC 5 spd - Shifty ............... 1990 LSC SE - Trusty ............... 1991 LSC SE - Dusty ...
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1984 Base Turbo diesel, Silver - 1986 Bill Blass, Med Sandlewood, - 1988 LSC, Shadow Blue - 1988 LSC, Black, 5 spd -1988 Bill Blass, White - 1990 SE, Black
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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby oldschool1 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:21 am

I'll try to shoot some better pictures Art but the replacement bases were very close to OEM LSC (IIRC).
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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby artbaileyjr » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:21 pm

oldschool1 wrote:I'll try to shoot some better pictures Art but the replacement bases were very close to OEM LSC (IIRC).


I only have two Arnott springs, John. They were removed from two different cars that I bought. In as much as they were harvested from different cars and at different times, (both LSCs), I assumed that they were "all" as pictured. They didn't match the opposite side so they were replaced with serviceable used OEM springs. I didn't know that they made a matching LSC style spring. :oops:

I stand corrected. ;)

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..... It's more about the people, than it is about the cars .....

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... 1988 LSC 5 spd - Shifty ............... 1990 LSC SE - Trusty ............... 1991 LSC SE - Dusty ...
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/200 ... uide1.html
http://www.lincolnlandonline.com/index.html
1984 Base Turbo diesel, Silver - 1986 Bill Blass, Med Sandlewood, - 1988 LSC, Shadow Blue - 1988 LSC, Black, 5 spd -1988 Bill Blass, White - 1990 SE, Black
1991 SE, Black - 1991 LSC, Currant Red - 1991 LSC, White - 1991 SE, Currant Red. All straight, licensed, garaged and completely dependable.
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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby machvii » Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:33 am

There is nothing left of my original car but the unibody and I will stay with air springs.

I just finished installing new coil springs in my 1970 Mark III and I will convert it to air springs as soon as I recover from the psychotic amount of money and work that I am investing in this behemoth.

For whatever that is worth, I remain...

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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby oldschool1 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:33 pm

artbaileyjr wrote:
oldschool1 wrote:I'll try to shoot some better pictures Art but the replacement bases were very close to OEM LSC (IIRC).


I only have two Arnott springs, John. They were removed from two different cars that I bought. In as much as they were harvested from different cars and at different times, (both LSCs), I assumed that they were "all" as pictured. They didn't match the opposite side so they were replaced with serviceable used OEM springs. I didn't know that they made a matching LSC style spring. :oops:

I stand corrected. ;)

Art

I found em and ~I~ stand corrected. The Arnotts are clearly narrower than stock LSC front air spring bases.

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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby oldschool1 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:12 am

From what I've seen, yes.
I have yet to need to change air springs in my non LSCs.
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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby 2manymarks » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:34 am

:roll: You guys crack me up! After all this time and pictures, we should have it clear. Sorry, John, but I am with Art on this. His pictures and explanation fit with what I know in dealing with Arnott. I have a good sampling of the bags down here but will have to get them together for pics and ID. Unless they changed in the last couple years since I last purchased an Arnott replacement bag, they are as Art stated, an compromise between the OEM BB and LSC bags. Yes, they will work on either, but will not match OEM in either case. Perhaps that is an improvement for the BB (pre '91) but not for the LSC. Most people will not feel the difference if replaced in pairs and they are suitable for either model. My complaint is when they (aftermarket supplier) fail to admit there is a difference from OEM. 8-)

(obviously a late entry-sorry)
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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby artbaileyjr » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:09 pm

I personally won't run 'um.

Art
..... It's more about the people, than it is about the cars .....

Image
... 1988 LSC 5 spd - Shifty ............... 1990 LSC SE - Trusty ............... 1991 LSC SE - Dusty ...
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/200 ... uide1.html
http://www.lincolnlandonline.com/index.html
1984 Base Turbo diesel, Silver - 1986 Bill Blass, Med Sandlewood, - 1988 LSC, Shadow Blue - 1988 LSC, Black, 5 spd -1988 Bill Blass, White - 1990 SE, Black
1991 SE, Black - 1991 LSC, Currant Red - 1991 LSC, White - 1991 SE, Currant Red. All straight, licensed, garaged and completely dependable.
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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby Dereck » Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:31 pm

Hi Guys

Sorry to say it but the Mark vii's air ride system sucks royal goats ass for comfort compared to Citroen's hydropneumatic suspension :P

Regards

Dereck
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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby artbaileyjr » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:46 pm

Dereck wrote:Hi Guys

Sorry to say it but the Mark vii's air ride system sucks royal goats ass for comfort compared to Citroen's hydropneumatic suspension :P

Regards

Dereck

Dereck,
Ship me a complete system and I'll give 'um a go! :shock: :roll: :lol:

Regards,
Art
..... It's more about the people, than it is about the cars .....

Image
... 1988 LSC 5 spd - Shifty ............... 1990 LSC SE - Trusty ............... 1991 LSC SE - Dusty ...
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/200 ... uide1.html
http://www.lincolnlandonline.com/index.html
1984 Base Turbo diesel, Silver - 1986 Bill Blass, Med Sandlewood, - 1988 LSC, Shadow Blue - 1988 LSC, Black, 5 spd -1988 Bill Blass, White - 1990 SE, Black
1991 SE, Black - 1991 LSC, Currant Red - 1991 LSC, White - 1991 SE, Currant Red. All straight, licensed, garaged and completely dependable.
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Re: BAGS VS SPRINGS

Postby hansa » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:29 pm

artbaileyjr wrote:
Dereck wrote:Hi Guys

Sorry to say it but the Mark vii's air ride system sucks royal goats ass for comfort compared to Citroen's hydropneumatic suspension :P

Regards

Dereck

Dereck,
Ship me a complete system and I'll give 'um a go! :shock: :roll: :lol:

Regards,
Art

:lol: Best way the waist money :lol:
OK . Seriously, Bags is number one . Ride level is all times right.
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