Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help please.

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Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help please.

Postby mikeceli » Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:54 pm

Hi folks. Re my 286,000 mile 1988 LSC, which I have owned and maintained since 1997 98,000 miles.

Recently, the engine stopped running couple times at idle (once on a HOT day) and once off throttle, at approx. 55 MPH. Friend replaced the year old Motorcraft TFI module with a Borg Warner Division unit. My buddy installed a new ignition switch and EEC IV relay (AKA ignition relay). The problem reoccurred.

It also has had crank but no start situations. Battery/starter is fine and cranks the engine over as it should. On a recent no start, I observed 0 fuel pressure on my test gauge. Struck the bottom of the fuel tank with a rubber mallet, it then had 30 PSI fuel pressure and started and ran well. On another occasion, measured 20 PSI fuel pressure, yet the engine ran fine from idle to 2000 RPM, in neutral.

Installed a new fuel pump/hanger assembly and did not malfunction for approx 2 days.

Today, it experienced a crank, but no start, showing 0 fuel psi. I jumpered the fuel pump relay which energized the pump, producing 30 PSI. It cranked but did not start.


I wasted 20 minutes looking for my ignition spark tester, The engine started and ran fine(the problem went away, for now).

Any idaes? Thanks.
Last edited by mikeceli on Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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1988 Mark VII LSC

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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby K MANIAC » Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:53 pm

Hi Mike:

Yes, I have an idea what is wrong....

FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR

From your post, it appears that you connected a fuel pressure gauge to the test port on the fuel rail. That is STEP 1 in a proper fuel pressure test. This pressure reading shows how the fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator are working together to maintain the specified fuel pressure of 39 psi +/-2 psi.

A fuel pressure measurement below specification indicates a problem, but does not isolate what the problem is. Low fuel rail pressure can be caused by plugged pick up screen (dirt in the gas), weak fuel pump, or a faulty fuel pressure regulator. The next step in isolating the problem is STEP 2.

STEP 2 is the dead head pressure test of the fuel pump. This requires first attaching a fuel pressure gauge with a proper nipple to one end of a rubber fuel line, then attaching the other end of this rubber fuel line to the metal fuel line coming from the fuel pump, after detaching the rubber fuel hose going to the fuel filter inlet from the metal line. Once the gauge is attached, do at least 5 "key/on - key/off" cycles of the ignition switch to pump up the pressure. A dead head pressure over 50 psi indicates the fuel pump is good. A dead head pressure below 50 psi, especially if below 39 psi, means it is time to drop the gas tank.

When the fuel pump passes the dead head pressure test, the only thing left to be faulty is the fuel pressure regulator. This can be further verified by clamping a rubber portion of the fuel return line to the tank while a fuel pressure gauge is attached to the fuel rail and watching how the fuel pressure varies as the return line is clamped and unclamped.

A word of advice to everyone....

never ... Never ... NEVER ... drop the gas tank and replace the fuel pump WITHOUT proving the fuel pump bad with a dead head pressure test.

Mike, please let me know if you have any questions or comments.
"This car may be old, but it will still climb Kirker Pass at 110!"- quote of the original owner of my green 1964 Chrysler 300-K

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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby mikeceli » Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:00 pm

I am pretty certain it is not a bad fuel pump, because 1 friend installed a new fuel pump and screen, 16 months ago. AND

2 More importantly, the malfunction began a few weeks ago, and buddy installed ANOTHER new fuel pump and screen, about 7 days ago and the problem persisted. The problem occurs with the original and a new Fuel Pump Relay. (TWO new relays, two new pumps).


I think something is interrupting current flow to the pump. I am thinking intermittent open circuit in the inertia sensor? Could a distributor pick up coil, or an ECA (Electronic Control Assembly) intermittently prevent the fuel pump from receiving current?

Difficulty is, the symptom goes away in minutes, making troubleshooting difficult. Also, at least once, jumpered the fuel pump relay, which made the pump run and produce 32 PSI at the rail. Yet the engine did not immediately start. (Perhaps it needed a few more seconds to get the fuel to the injectors)?

Thanks.
Last edited by mikeceli on Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
GOD BLESS AMERICA]

1988 Mark VII LSC

2016 Chev Cruze
2014 Chev VOLT
2000 Ford Excursion 4X4 Diesel
1996 Implal SS Black
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby K MANIAC » Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:26 pm

Mike, 32 psi at the fuel rail is TOO DARN LOW.

Have you performed the dead head pressure test of the pump to measure the maximum pressure the pump can produce? If so, what pressure did you measure? If not, what are you waiting for?

I still think this is a fuel pressure regulator issue, but we still won't know until a proper and complete fuel pressure test procedure is completed.
"This car may be old, but it will still climb Kirker Pass at 110!"- quote of the original owner of my green 1964 Chrysler 300-K

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1986 Continental
1989 Mark VII Bill Blass (Oxford White)
1989 Mark VII LSC (Pewter Metallic)
1989 Mark VII LSC (Sandstone Metallic)
1/2 of a 1992 Town Car Signature (my guaranteed inheritance)
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby mikeceli » Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:48 pm

When I have a no start, the fuel pressure is less 10 PSI. With the engine running, 32 PSI, engine running disconnect the vacuum hose from the PSI regulator, 36 PSI. We are trying to diagnose a no start, not a driveability issue. Both fuel pumps (in the last 10 days) had the same readings, 0-10 psi not start, 32 PSi running.

On one no start episode , bypassed the Fuel pump relay and the pressure went from 0 to 32 PSI and the engine started.

I understand the validity of the dead head test, but in this case, the pump doesn't run, during the no start episodes.
Last edited by mikeceli on Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
GOD BLESS AMERICA]

1988 Mark VII LSC

2016 Chev Cruze
2014 Chev VOLT
2000 Ford Excursion 4X4 Diesel
1996 Implal SS Black
1996 Impala SS Dark Cherry
1995 Buick Roadmaster sedan
1986 Corvette Coupe
1989 IROC-Z Camaro convertible
1986 Ford F250 4X4 Diesel
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby CDW6212R » Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:44 pm

It could be either, the FPR is supposed to restrict fuel from returning to the pump. If it fails to do that, the pressure drops, with the pump running. From what you have done it does sound more like the pump wiring circuit. But I would want to go through the recommended diagnostic tests to make conclusions that narrow the possibilities better.
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby K MANIAC » Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:51 am

All right, Mike, one more thing....

You have owned this car since 1997 (18 years). When was the last time you inspected or replaced the ignition switch? A failing ignition switch could cause your problems.
"This car may be old, but it will still climb Kirker Pass at 110!"- quote of the original owner of my green 1964 Chrysler 300-K

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1986 Continental
1989 Mark VII Bill Blass (Oxford White)
1989 Mark VII LSC (Pewter Metallic)
1989 Mark VII LSC (Sandstone Metallic)
1/2 of a 1992 Town Car Signature (my guaranteed inheritance)
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby mikeceli » Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:55 pm

Installed a new ignition switch and EEC IV relay, about 10 days ago.
We have also replaced the fuel pump and screen,and TFI module, all in an effort to solve this intermittent problem.

The one consistency.............during the no start occurrence the fuel pump doesn't run. Sometimes I get the pump running by jumping at the FP relay multiple connector........sometime this allows the engine to start, sometimes NOT!

It's like the fuel pump and something else (fuel injector command) is loosing signal, intermittently.
Last edited by mikeceli on Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
GOD BLESS AMERICA]

1988 Mark VII LSC

2016 Chev Cruze
2014 Chev VOLT
2000 Ford Excursion 4X4 Diesel
1996 Implal SS Black
1996 Impala SS Dark Cherry
1995 Buick Roadmaster sedan
1986 Corvette Coupe
1989 IROC-Z Camaro convertible
1986 Ford F250 4X4 Diesel
1979 "Y84" "Bandit" Trans Am 403/AT
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby K MANIAC » Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:58 pm

Mike, do you have an EVTM? I hope so.

Have you checked or cleaned the fuse link connections on the starter relay? The EEC power relay gets 12 volt power from Fuse Link K, which is attached to the starter solenoid with other fuse links. A dirty or bad connection there could cause an intermittent shutdown condition. Check it out.
"This car may be old, but it will still climb Kirker Pass at 110!"- quote of the original owner of my green 1964 Chrysler 300-K

Image
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1986 Continental
1989 Mark VII Bill Blass (Oxford White)
1989 Mark VII LSC (Pewter Metallic)
1989 Mark VII LSC (Sandstone Metallic)
1/2 of a 1992 Town Car Signature (my guaranteed inheritance)
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby mikeceli » Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:28 pm

K MANIAC wrote:Mike, do you have an EVTM? I hope so.

Have you checked or cleaned the fuse link connections on the starter relay? The EEC power relay gets 12 volt power from Fuse Link K, which is attached to the starter solenoid with other fuse links. A dirty or bad connection there could cause an intermittent shutdown condition. Check it out.



WILL DO. thanks.
GOD BLESS AMERICA]

1988 Mark VII LSC

2016 Chev Cruze
2014 Chev VOLT
2000 Ford Excursion 4X4 Diesel
1996 Implal SS Black
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1995 Buick Roadmaster sedan
1986 Corvette Coupe
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1986 Ford F250 4X4 Diesel
1979 "Y84" "Bandit" Trans Am 403/AT
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby oldschool1 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:46 pm

mikeceli wrote:I am pretty certain it is not a bad fuel pump, because 1 friend installed a new fuel pump and screen, 16 months ago.
...

Image
Shown above, OEM pump and strainer on the left. Replacement pump and strainer on the right.
New screens (strainers/socks) do NOT reach the bottoms of our tanks, mimicking an out-of-fuel condition even when we have 1/4 tank of fuel left to use.
I put my OEM strainer on the replacement pump because it reaches down farther than the replacement strainer.
Owners that have used the replacement strainer with the replacement pump have reported "running out of gas even though I could only fit ten gallons back into the tank".

The next time that you experience a crank-no-run condition, add at least two gallons (five is better) to the tank and try again. If it turns over and runs immediately, you've got a short sock and should never allow your fuel gauge to go below 1/2.

Let us know how you proceed.
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby mikeceli » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:49 am

GOD BLESS AMERICA]

1988 Mark VII LSC

2016 Chev Cruze
2014 Chev VOLT
2000 Ford Excursion 4X4 Diesel
1996 Implal SS Black
1996 Impala SS Dark Cherry
1995 Buick Roadmaster sedan
1986 Corvette Coupe
1989 IROC-Z Camaro convertible
1986 Ford F250 4X4 Diesel
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby mikeceli » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:50 am

Havent dealt w/ it a a while. I'll advise when work resumes on the VII.
GOD BLESS AMERICA]

1988 Mark VII LSC

2016 Chev Cruze
2014 Chev VOLT
2000 Ford Excursion 4X4 Diesel
1996 Implal SS Black
1996 Impala SS Dark Cherry
1995 Buick Roadmaster sedan
1986 Corvette Coupe
1989 IROC-Z Camaro convertible
1986 Ford F250 4X4 Diesel
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby oldschool1 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:38 pm

mikeceli wrote:http://images.wrenchead.com/Smartpages/partinfo_resize/DCL/TS56_PRIMARY.jpg

what was installed.

Yup.
That is the correct replacement.
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby mikeceli » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:27 am

I drive it every few days. problem gone, for now.
GOD BLESS AMERICA]

1988 Mark VII LSC

2016 Chev Cruze
2014 Chev VOLT
2000 Ford Excursion 4X4 Diesel
1996 Implal SS Black
1996 Impala SS Dark Cherry
1995 Buick Roadmaster sedan
1986 Corvette Coupe
1989 IROC-Z Camaro convertible
1986 Ford F250 4X4 Diesel
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby mikeceli » Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:57 am

I put the Lincoln in storage and haven't driven it in months. I'll advise when I revisit this problem.
GOD BLESS AMERICA]

1988 Mark VII LSC

2016 Chev Cruze
2014 Chev VOLT
2000 Ford Excursion 4X4 Diesel
1996 Implal SS Black
1996 Impala SS Dark Cherry
1995 Buick Roadmaster sedan
1986 Corvette Coupe
1989 IROC-Z Camaro convertible
1986 Ford F250 4X4 Diesel
1979 "Y84" "Bandit" Trans Am 403/AT
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby mikeceli » Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:49 am

I have been starting the Lincoln every couple weeks, since I advised that I put it in storage. The last 2 visits it would not start. I energized the fuel pump, at the relay. The pump ran but did not start. I obesrved that thier was no spark, comming from the coil wire.

I ordered a Motorcraft Ignition distributor pick up coil.

I'll be back when I install it and have more info.('m thinking bad pick up, or ECU.
GOD BLESS AMERICA]

1988 Mark VII LSC

2016 Chev Cruze
2014 Chev VOLT
2000 Ford Excursion 4X4 Diesel
1996 Implal SS Black
1996 Impala SS Dark Cherry
1995 Buick Roadmaster sedan
1986 Corvette Coupe
1989 IROC-Z Camaro convertible
1986 Ford F250 4X4 Diesel
1979 "Y84" "Bandit" Trans Am 403/AT
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby mikeceli » Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:57 pm

Yesterday I installed a new distributor "Stater" (Pickup-Coil). The Lincoln started up and ran! I did not road test it. I will advise when I put it back in service and see if it's truely fixed. If not, I'll replace the ECU.

Do Capacitors fail in EEC IV ECU's? Can they be replaced? Reman Cardone?
GOD BLESS AMERICA]

1988 Mark VII LSC

2016 Chev Cruze
2014 Chev VOLT
2000 Ford Excursion 4X4 Diesel
1996 Implal SS Black
1996 Impala SS Dark Cherry
1995 Buick Roadmaster sedan
1986 Corvette Coupe
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1986 Ford F250 4X4 Diesel
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby oldschool1 » Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:26 am

mikeceli wrote:... Do Capacitors fail in EEC IV ECU's? Can they be replaced? Reman Cardone?

Idunno but ...
congratulations on the replacement!
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby robertbweltzien » Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:10 pm

Mikeceli, How much difficulty did you have disassembling the distributor? I had one on an '85 351W (police) motor that came out the top and didn't require removing the distributor shaft.

Bob
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby mikeceli » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:09 pm

BOB. The stators on DuraSpark ignition cars, like yours come out the top.

The EEC IV cars require pulling the dist..

I indexed the shutter wheel to the mounting spot w/ a dab of paint and removed it (2 screws). I then marked the dist gear/shaft, drove the roll pins out of the gear and shaft "collar". I cleaned the shaft w/ fine sandpaper and carb spray. I lubed the shaft, then used a bearing separator (2 piece plate) and spacers to support the gear, then the collar, as I pressed them out on a press.

Cleaned it up and reassembled. Not a bad job, at all. 15 years ago, I paid the Ford dealer to R&R the stator, on same dist., that I carried in.
GOD BLESS AMERICA]

1988 Mark VII LSC

2016 Chev Cruze
2014 Chev VOLT
2000 Ford Excursion 4X4 Diesel
1996 Implal SS Black
1996 Impala SS Dark Cherry
1995 Buick Roadmaster sedan
1986 Corvette Coupe
1989 IROC-Z Camaro convertible
1986 Ford F250 4X4 Diesel
1979 "Y84" "Bandit" Trans Am 403/AT
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby mikeceli » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:16 pm

UPDATE. The Lincoln has been in storage since end of last year, started a few times since I replaced the Distributor Pick Up Coil. Last week my brother tried to start it. It cranked over fine, but did not start. Yesterday I started it up with no difficulty.

So, the new ignition switch, TFI Module, Distributor PIckup Coil, Fuel pump, and relay, has not cured the intermittent crank but no start, problem. I have not hooked up any gauges (fuel etc) or run tests in months. Too busy. Maybe ECU next?

I'd sell the car for less than I paid for it's 6 year old duplicate of OE leather and 4-5 year old paint job. I love the car but have way too many cars.
GOD BLESS AMERICA]

1988 Mark VII LSC

2016 Chev Cruze
2014 Chev VOLT
2000 Ford Excursion 4X4 Diesel
1996 Implal SS Black
1996 Impala SS Dark Cherry
1995 Buick Roadmaster sedan
1986 Corvette Coupe
1989 IROC-Z Camaro convertible
1986 Ford F250 4X4 Diesel
1979 "Y84" "Bandit" Trans Am 403/AT
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby oldschool1 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:13 pm

Let's get back to basics.

Pull codes BEFORE trying your next restart.
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Re: Intermittent no start, intermittent shutdown. Help plea

Postby mikeceli » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:13 am

I will, but don't know when I'll get to it.
GOD BLESS AMERICA]

1988 Mark VII LSC

2016 Chev Cruze
2014 Chev VOLT
2000 Ford Excursion 4X4 Diesel
1996 Implal SS Black
1996 Impala SS Dark Cherry
1995 Buick Roadmaster sedan
1986 Corvette Coupe
1989 IROC-Z Camaro convertible
1986 Ford F250 4X4 Diesel
1979 "Y84" "Bandit" Trans Am 403/AT
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